CCA Halifax Card

[Indebt1]

HI All

I sent the standard CCA letter to Halifax on the 30th March and recived a response on the 17th April.
there didnt seem to be a proper agreement attached, just a computer printout stating "cc agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974" my name on the front page followed by all the standard jargon nothing indicating a signature or even remotley resembling an application form.
also enclosed an account summary/statement as well as a 7 page printout of terms and conditions.
There letter seems pretty defensive because all i asked for was an agreemnt copy and look at the bottom two paragraphs.
Anyway i would appriciate some guidence on how to move forward with this?
i am in arrears now by one month do i pay?
is it worth paying minimum payments and continuing to fight or just demand the correct forms?
Is there a letter now the i should send?
any help is most appriciated.

[Indebt1]

[Indebt1]

[/IMG]

[Indebt1]

[Indebt1]

anybody??

[Fingers60]

Hey Indebt 1

The docs you have been sent is the standard HBOS reponse.

I would reply with a letter, I have copied one below for you...amend to suit.

Halifax sent me this stuff first and i chased and eventually they sent a copy of my CCA.

There are 2 reasons they may have not sent you it 1) they have lost it 2) it may be unenforcable so they dont want you to have a copy.

Personally I would continue with the CCA request letters and give them plenty of time to respond.

If this route fails then check out PTs thread as this seems to be the way forward rather than the standard CCA request route:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...uldnt-use.html

Success of this route can be followed here:

smt37 vs Morgan Stanley/Goldfish/Barclaycard ** ORDER TO PRODUCE CCA CPR31.16 WIN ***

With regards payments, some on here have stopped all payments after 14 days of the CC company failing to come up with the CCA copy. However, it is likely that the card company will ignore you and pass you on to their collection services and register adverse information agaisnt you on your credit file.

So I guess it depends on how you feel about having your credit file trashed??

Personnally, I have continued the minimum payments on my cards until I am pretty sure I have a good case for stopping payments but that is just my personal view.

My letter below:

Card Services
Halifax
Pitreavie Business Park
Dunfermline
Fife
KY99 4BS


FORMAL NOTICE - ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE[/font]
Account/Reference NumberYour Ref:
Thank you for your recent reply (dated) to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

I note that you have replied to the above by sending your company’s current and previous Terms and Conditions and a covering letter giving the prescribed terms. I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with my request and that your company is in default under the act You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original executed Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

In my letter of the ***** I made a formal request for a copy of the signed, executed credit agreement for the above account under Sections 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.
The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contains all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document also
Furthermore, you are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before you enter into a default situation
You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default today ****** (12+2 working days after I sent you the CCA request – you signed for my original letter on the ****** Royal mail ref: ************).
To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement.

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;[/font]
As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorizes, “the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form.” This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:[/font]

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements

And more importantly

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorized by regulations

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-
a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;
(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned provison.

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.
It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY
Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you
You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.
You may not pass the account to a third party
You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.
You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint, your further non-compliance will result in complaints being forwarded to the relevant statutory bodies.

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues

Yours faithfully


Fingers

[JIG]

Hi,

I have been provided with the same standard cover letter but have also been provided with two credit agreements, one to my current address and the other to my previous address and both with my name on them.

They are both headed Credit card Agreement Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

They have also provided a statement of accout which defines the the current account balance, rates, etc/

Can someone advise of the next step as I think this may be slightly different to 'Indebt1'

Help

[Fingers60]

Hi JIG

No you are in the same boat.

I had teh same as you. Printed document headed as you one for my previous address when I took the card out...and one for my present address.....+ the covering letter. Standard HBOS response.

If they havent sent you a copy of your original signed credit agreement they are in default of your request.

Follow the advice i gave indebt.

Fingers

[ADSKIWHISKI]

Hey all, Im a novice at all of this but recently I sent template letter from forum fo rrequest of signed CCA. Around two weeks later I recieved exactly the same response letter as on this thread!!!

I have racked up about £3k of debt on my credit card and now I am making reduced minimum payments to Halifax through a debt management company. Anyone got any advice as to what I should do next?? Am I right in thonking that the above letter is NOT a copy of signed credit agreement??? Any advice would be gratefully appreciated. Many thanks Adskiwhiski

[Fingers60]

HEy Adski

All you need so far is contained within this thread so have a reread and follow the aboe advice.

My advice would be to keep a record of all correspondence sent to Halifax, send 1st class recorded (costs about £1), if you dont get anywhere with the CCA requests then follow PTs advice in:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...uldnt-use.html

Send the 2nd letter above, give them another 21 working days...and personanly i would then switch to PTs advice and request your CCA under the CPR procedures...

Fingers

[Indebt1]

hi all

Have sent the following letter and recieved a call today chasing payment and i very politley explained that the account is in dispute as nobody has answered the below later yet, they made me repeat that it is in dispute for the benefit of the recorder i suppose and i have not made any payment, is this dangerous now?
do i make the minimum and continue to fight?





[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']FORMAL NOTICE - ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE[/font][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']
Account/Reference Number[/font][FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']Your Ref: [/font][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']
[/font][FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']Thank you for [/font][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']your recent reply 17th April 09 to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

I note that you have replied to the above by sending your company’s current and previous Terms and Conditions and a covering letter giving the prescribed terms. I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with my request and that your company is in default under the act[/font][FONT='Calibri','sans-serif'] ,You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original executed Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.[/font][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']

[/font][FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']In my letter dated March 30th I made a formal request for a copy of the signed, executed credit agreement for the above account under Sections 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. [/font][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']
The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contains all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document also
Furthermore, you are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before you enter into a default situation
You have failed to comply with my request, Furthermore, you are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before you enter into a default situation
You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on the 21st April 2009 (12+2 working days after I sent you the CCA request – you signed for my original letter on the 1st April Royal mail ref:
To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement.

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows:
As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorizes, “the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form.” This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements

And more importantly

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorized by regulations

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-
a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations there under as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;
(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned provison.

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.
It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY
Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you
You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.
You may not pass the account to a third party
You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.
You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint, your further non-compliance will result in complaints being forwarded to the relevant statutory bodies.

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues

Yours faithfully[/font]

[Fingers60]

Hey Indebt

They will most likley ignore your letters, continue to ask fro payment and regsietr late payments, then a default agaist you and then pass your account on to a debt collection agency...

What they should do in terms of their legal obligations under the CCA and what they actually do are 2 very different things!

As i said i have maintained my minimum payments until i know exactly where i stand...that is just my approach as i work in financial services and dont want to explain to my employer why my credit file is trashed !

So what you depends on your circumstances ,what your looking to achieve etc

so when you say is this dangerous ?? well..depends really ! in theory no...but reality and your credit file are 2 differen stories...in theory you can stopmpaying and if thye suddenly come up with an enfoecable agreement..you woudl say ok the games up i'll pay you now...

does that help ?

[Indebt1]

Looking through all the threads seems to be very few have actually got away or made a settlment using the CCA requests.
they called me last week and i advised over the phone that my account is in dispute and they must reply to letters that i have sent, in the meantime i would ask them to refrain from calling me.

[Gears]

Hi to All
I to had the sae details sent back to from Halifax & BOS rather than clutter the tread up with the info that is already on here.
I will not be paying them a penny until i see what i asked for and will be sent the letter on as per Fingers60 suggested and wait and see what happens.
Like he said there one or two reasons why they did not sent it in the first place.
Indebt1 if you could keep me todate what is happening from end that would be great and if there is some kind persond out that can spare the time to advise on the matter going forward as to what steps i should take i.e. what order etc.

[Fingers60]

Hi Gears

Just build up a paper trail of correspondence,send everything correspondence, and will be worth familarising yourself with the thread below:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...uldnt-use.html

Fingers

[Fingers60]

oh and start you own thread up Gears in the Halifax section and keep it updated and you can always ask others to check your thread out for advice.

[Gears]

Hi Fingers60

Thanks for reply and comments tried to open your link but with no luck
any ideas?

[maroondevo52]

Hi, Gears.

The 'link's not working, best thing to do is start your own thread.

Regards.

Scott.

[London000]

Originally Posted by Fingers60

Hey Indebt 1

The docs you have been sent is the standard HBOS reponse.

I would reply with a letter, I have copied one below for you...amend to suit.

Halifax sent me this stuff first and i chased and eventually they sent a copy of my CCA.

There are 2 reasons they may have not sent you it 1) they have lost it 2) it may be unenforcable so they dont want you to have a copy.

Personally I would continue with the CCA request letters and give them plenty of time to respond.

If this route fails then check out PTs thread as this seems to be the way forward rather than the standard CCA request route:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...uldnt-use.html

Success of this route can be followed here:

smt37 vs Morgan Stanley/Goldfish/Barclaycard ** ORDER TO PRODUCE CCA CPR31.16 WIN ***

With regards payments, some on here have stopped all payments after 14 days of the CC company failing to come up with the CCA copy. However, it is likely that the card company will ignore you and pass you on to their collection services and register adverse information agaisnt you on your credit file.

So I guess it depends on how you feel about having your credit file trashed??

Personnally, I have continued the minimum payments on my cards until I am pretty sure I have a good case for stopping payments but that is just my personal view.

My letter below:

Card Services
Halifax
Pitreavie Business Park
Dunfermline
Fife
KY99 4BS


FORMAL NOTICE - ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE[/font]
Account/Reference NumberYour Ref:
Thank you for your recent reply (dated) to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

I note that you have replied to the above by sending your company’s current and previous Terms and Conditions and a covering letter giving the prescribed terms. I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with my request and that your company is in default under the act You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original executed Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

In my letter of the ***** I made a formal request for a copy of the signed, executed credit agreement for the above account under Sections 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.
The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contains all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document also
Furthermore, you are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before you enter into a default situation
You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default today ****** (12+2 working days after I sent you the CCA request – you signed for my original letter on the ****** Royal mail ref: ************).
To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement.

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;[/font]
As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorizes, “the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form.” This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:[/font]

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements

And more importantly

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorized by regulations

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-
a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;
(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned provison.

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.
It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY
Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you
You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.
You may not pass the account to a third party
You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.
You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint, your further non-compliance will result in complaints being forwarded to the relevant statutory bodies.

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues

Yours faithfully


Fingers

Hi fingers,
Yes it is amazing! I have exactly the same. I have had 3 notices so far as since I have told them that no payments are to be made by me until they are sending me a true copy of Credit agreement. They have told me that they will not correspond at all with me. How funny...I could tell them that as I wanted to make my payment through letter, now thank you very much but you told me not to....are they managers??????
I will wait anyway and see what they will do as really as I could see they are stalling, try to scare people but at the moment...nothing yet. If I could use your letter as well with my own details I will mention as well the CPR. then I will give them about 21 days and see what they say. Not to mention that I will let them know that, if they do share my details with the collectors(which they have done it already)I shall put them on notice.
Regards,
DD

[LB145]

My Halifax letter received below is almost the same slightly different in the 2nd to last paragraph - I am new to this - so apologies if I am doing this wrong - not sure how to start a new one (was also advised to try another Forum - woah didn't get a great welcome - so very nervous about joining - just searching for help like most on here! Thanks

Requested Credit Agreement from the Halifax and received an letter in response to my request - no signed agreement but they enclosed a typed document which they state is a copy of my executed agreement, a copy of my current terms and conditions and a signed statement of my account. Also this paragraph in the letter

" The copy of the agreement enclosed with this letter complies with the requirements of the Consumer Credit (Cancellatin Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (the "Regulations"). Regulation 3(2)(b) provides that a copy can omit any signature box, signature or date of signature. In summary we are not required to produce a copy with your clients signature on it. By providing a copy of this agreement complying witht he requirements of the Regulations the agreement remains enforceable.

By providing you with the documents attached to this letter, we have satisfield our obligation to provide a copy of the executed agreement under section78. As such, the agreement you have with us is fully enforceable and we shall continue to treat it as such. We will not be entering into any further correspondence with you regarding the requirements relating to the provision of copy agreements.

Finally, we must remind you that failure to make payments under this agreement will result in collection activities and any default may also be reported to credit reference agencies."

What should be my next response? Would be so grateful